I count PLB & HH as my F-count. It's too much work any other way. The fun
is in the find anyway. Let's not lose sight of that.

STAR:W+S=DRR


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree, although I've never received a PLB. I count the HH in my F count.

However, I know some count the PLB separate as well as X separate.

Have fun!






the Letterboxing Richters
P 7 F 69



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is from the FAQ's at www.letterboxing.org and sums it up nicely IMO.
Remember, the only one your count matters to is you--so be true to yourself.

********************************

What Are PFX Counts and Other Abbreviations?
This question gets asked a ton. Please don't ask it on the talk list -- the
list is beyond burnt out on it :-).
P and F is simply a declaration of how many boxes the North American
letterboxer has Planted and Found -- it usually appears in one's e-mail
signature. For example, P83F220 means the letterboxer has hidden 83 boxes,
and found 220. "X" is the number of eXchanges made with other letterboxers,
usually exchanges of personal stamps. "E" is the number of Event stamps
collected by a letterboxer. Some people will also put other abbreviations in
their signature, if you are interested in what they mean, dumpster dive the
talk list archive, or ask the individual directly, please don't post this
question to the talk list.

Of course, counting is not as easy as it first appears on the surface, and
sometimes people ask "how should I count this?". For example: 'What if I
find the box and the stamp isn't there?', or 'What if I find the box and it
contains a map to the stamp and I can't find the stamp?', or 'What if I
solve the clues via the Internet, but never visit the box?', and on and on.
As is done in Dartmoor, we have developed an LbNA patch to be awarded to
letterboxers when they reach particular numbers of North American finds, but
declaring accurate counts is on the honor system.

Here are some guidelines on how to count, and while there is no rule-making
body for American letterboxing, these guidelines seem neutral and fair, if
you are in doubt:


Letterboxes planted in North America by any person, regardless of
letterboxing affiliation, count as Planted, and count as Found if Found as
below. No other objects can be counted as Found.

Further, a letterbox can only count as Found when the letterboxer obtains a
stamp image from any stamp associated with that box, and their personal
stamp image has been imprinted (or attempted) in the logbook or other part
of the box.

A box can be counted as Found more than once if the preceeding apply, and
its clue, location, and stamp image have all changed since Found the first
time.

A box Planted cannot be Found by the person who Planted it.

Hitchhikers count when initially planted by there creator, and count as
found when anyone else finds them. Hitchhikers are letterboxes like anything
else, therefore if their creator finds his own creation, he can't count it.
Now, with things like Geocaching, and the potential to put stamps in
geocaches, the question has also come up, in terms of P and F counting:
"what is a letterbox?". No compelling argument was made against counting
geocaches and the like that happened to contain stamps, in terms of P and F
numbers (although interesting ambiguities can arise), so they count for P
and F numbers. I think this quote from Todd Lane sums it up the best:

If it has a notebook, a rubber stamp, and a set of clues it is a letterbox.
I dont think we should limit the type of clues deemed acceptable [...] or
demand that all "letterboxes" be listed on the LbNA page.
******************************************

Mama Stork
aka Pam in Cinci



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julie [mailto:oceanwytch@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:06 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LbNA] Counting your F count
>
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I was wondering how people count their "F" count. Obviously a regular
> box is an "F", but what about travelers and HHs?? Do you count those
> in your "F" count as well?? If not, how do you count them? I keep
> track of everything seperately, but have been counting my regular Fs
> and my travelers together. How do you do it?
>
> ~Oceanwytch~
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> --------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you for posting this, and I apologize for posting it here. I'm
sure that people are tired of talking about it. The only one I am
really wondering about is the travelers and how to count them. Thanks
to everyone who has helped.

~Oceanwytch~

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
> This is from the FAQ's at www.letterboxing.org and sums it up
nicely IMO.
> Remember, the only one your count matters to is you--so be true to
yourself.

We count PLBs, HHs, Event Stamps, and Personal
Travelers as finds. We go by the old simple PFX Count.
No other letters used.....Chuck and Molly

--- Julie wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> I was wondering how people count their "F" count.
> Obviously a regular
> box is an "F", but what about travelers and HHs?? Do
> you count those
> in your "F" count as well?? If not, how do you count
> them? I keep
> track of everything seperately, but have been
> counting my regular Fs
> and my travelers together. How do you do it?
>
> ~Oceanwytch~
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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What do you mean by travelers?

If you are talking about Postal Letterboxes, some count them and some don't.
I don't unless I have to solve clues to get them.

If you mean personal travelers that some people carry, those would probably
fall under exchanges.

Some people really like counting and classifying--I have seen some really
fun categories. Others prefer to just find. Many fall in between. Find
your niche, count what you want and enjoy the hobby!


Mama Stork

. The only one I am
> really wondering about is the travelers and how to count them. Thanks
> to everyone who has helped.
>
>

I do mean the personal travelers.

~Oceanywtch~

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Kleingers"
wrote:
> What do you mean by travelers?
>
> If you mean personal travelers that some people carry, those would
probably
> fall under exchanges.

>
>
> Mama Stork

This is way too much math for me - I'm switching to:

SPM

Steps
Paces
Miles
and maybe
L for LBS, that must be a negative figure to count at all!

Judy B
Fairfax VA
sewsowbizzy

I think personally that PLB's and HH's should be
counted as F's and P's

You found the HH in a letterbox, and you found the
list to sign up for the PLB. Owners have planted the
HH's in the letterbox, and planted the PLB's in the
mail.

Just my two cents worth!
Songchick
F15P4X0


=====
Carpe Diem





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

My Counting House Rules

PFX 295 = P 24 + F 214 + X 57

P24 = 17 Placed + 3 Released + 4 Dead
F214 = F 186 + 23 HH + 5 Mystery
X57 = 9 Travelers & 48 Exchanges

A2 = 2 Adopted Boxes
N2 = Naked while boxing
E17 = 17 Event Stamps

How about an MIA count for all those missing boxes? Plus what about
the one I found where a raccoon had eaten the rubber stamp?



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Judy B" wrote:
> This is way too much math for me - I'm switching to:
>
> SPM
>
> Steps
> Paces
> Miles
> and maybe
> L for LBS, that must be a negative figure to count at all!
>
> Judy B
> Fairfax VA
> sewsowbizzy

Here's Anjabanja and my thought on Personal Travelers, as posted on
our website:
Personal travelers are additional stamps carved by letterboxers
which are exchanged with other letterboxers at gatherings, on the
trail, or in other situations where letterboxers may meet.
Normally, in order to obtain these stamps you must answer a question
posed by the letterboxer with the personal traveler. The questions
tend to deal with personal information about the letterboxer or the
personal traveler. Although attempting to guess or figure out what
the answer may be can be a fun challenge (and thus why finding the
answer allows you to count the personal traveler as a find in your
PFX count), Anjabanja and I feel that the spirit of a "find" (in the
letterbox sense) involves more than personal travelers offer.
Currently we are including personal travelers "found" in our F
counts (as that is the general tradition) but have decided to list
them separately on this page in order to distinguish them from what
we consider true finds (proper letterboxes).

At one gathering we went to we overheard someone say they don't
collect personal travelers. We are personally leaning toward doing
the same, if only because in our opinion the "hunt" doesn't justify
the reward and besides, at events, there's so much exchanging going
on we barely have enough time for that. I suppose it might be
different if we meet someone on the trail.

Anyway, that's a really long answer to a simple question, so let me
answer simply. Personal travelers are counted in your F count. If
you want to keep track of them separately as well, that's your call.

CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Julie"
wrote:
> I do mean the personal travelers.
>
> ~Oceanywtch~
>

Standard convention is that HHs and PLBs are Fs but not Ps. Ps can
only be earned by the original placer.

To each their own.

CPAScott

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, songchick
wrote:
> I think personally that PLB's and HH's should be
> counted as F's and P's
>
> You found the HH in a letterbox, and you found the
> list to sign up for the PLB. Owners have planted the
> HH's in the letterbox, and planted the PLB's in the
> mail.
>
> Just my two cents worth!
> Songchick
> F15P4X0
>
>
> =====
> Carpe Diem
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

I believe, since rubber isn't really digestible, that if you follow the
raccoon around, he will eventually "return" the rubber stamp. Once that
happens, you can count it as both a "Find" AND an "Exchange".
-wassamatta_u



-----Original Message-----
From: Rose Halter [mailto:rosmarinus@nrcengineering.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:54 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Counting your F count

How about an MIA count for all those missing boxes? Plus what about
the one I found where a raccoon had eaten the rubber stamp?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Most personal travelers are finds, since these same people have regular
stamps to exchange. Also personal travelers aren't stamped into other boxes, but
are stamped into people's logbooks like a find.

Exchanges are people's stamps that are stamped into boxes.

PLB's are usually counted as finds since they are boxes. HH's I could
separately, just so I can keep track. I don't add HH's into my F count, but they
are in my PFX count. Most people keep HH's in their F count though.

THat's how I do it.... Do I make any sense?

Music Woman
(Who's back in school, and may not make any sense..... she's still in summer
mode!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And mine:

PFX not enough = P a few + F even fewer + X not many

Things are slow here in LA (that's Looziana, not Los Angeleez) but
picking up. I'm holding onto about a dozen new boxes to plant -
until certain local boxers I've recruited to the hobby get off their
butts and HIDE SOME nearby for me to find! Can you believe that
several of them (you know who you are!) have planted some in other
states, but none at HOME????? Sheesh...

Happy hunting,
Zed

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Poison Ivy Hedge"
wrote:
> My Counting House Rules
>
> PFX 295 = P 24 + F 214 + X 57
>
> P24 = 17 Placed + 3 Released + 4 Dead
> F214 = F 186 + 23 HH + 5 Mystery
> X57 = 9 Travelers & 48 Exchanges
>
> A2 = 2 Adopted Boxes
> N2 = Naked while boxing
> E17 = 17 Event Stamps

Whether on the trail or at a gathering I consider obtaining an
individual's personal traveller stamp image to be comparable to an
exchange, in which you would obtain their signature stamp image --
just a different stamp. Therefore I include them in my "X" count.

Since I am not aware of any personal traveller stamp that travels
with its own log book (although there quite possibly may be one), it
doesn't seem to qualify as an "F" even if the song and dance one
must perform to get the thing is complicated and akin to hiking up
the steep side of the largest mountain in Kansas.

"F" is for letterboxes found -- a letterbox generally being defined
as a hidden box which you followed clues to find, and which obtains
a stamp and a log book, and with which you exchange stamp images.
Technically if you locate a box and the stamp is missing, even
though you have found the box and may be able to stamp into the log
book, it is not a true find since you did not obtain a stamp image
from the box. I know some people are loose on this and I guess I
can understand that since you followed the clues, did the hike, etc.

I would however, disagree that a PLB should be an "F" since there
was no hike (unless you have a really long driveway) and there were
no clues to follow. I wouldn't consider "figuring out how to get on
the list" comparable to a clue even if you had to pop a few kids to
qualify. Back when postal letterboxes were unusual and sent
stealthily from one person to another, and it was rare to have one
show up in your mailbox even once in a year, I might have felt
differently. But with the deluge of PLB these days, their
significance and stature has been severely diluted. Counting PLB as
an "F" would in essence enable a person to reach F100 without ever
leaving their house -- does that sound like letterboxing to you?

Same goes for virtual boxes in my mind -- they are a fun diversion
from real letterboxing. They can be a great way to sharpen your
sleuthing and reasoning skills and to pass time during bad weather
(alternate bad weather idea -- carve stamps), but I don't consider
solving one to be an "F". Some people keep track of them with their
own "V" designation, which is logical. I just solve them for fun
and don't count them as anything.

Of course there are exceptions to everything, most noteably HH.
Heck I think I even counted the very first PLB I was sent and also
the (virtual) Kimball Library box in my "F" count. So in
conclusion -- everyone is free to do it their own way and it doesn't
have to make sense to anyone else.

Its not like the numbers mean anything anyway.

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "cpascott" letterbox@c...> wrote:
> Here's Anjabanja and my thought on Personal Travelers, as posted
on
> our website:
> Personal travelers are additional stamps carved by letterboxers
> which are exchanged with other letterboxers at gatherings, on the
> trail, or in other situations where letterboxers may meet.
> Normally, in order to obtain these stamps you must answer a
question
> posed by the letterboxer with the personal traveler. The
questions
> tend to deal with personal information about the letterboxer or
the
> personal traveler. Although attempting to guess or figure out
what
> the answer may be can be a fun challenge (and thus why finding the
> answer allows you to count the personal traveler as a find in your
> PFX count), Anjabanja and I feel that the spirit of a "find" (in
the
> letterbox sense) involves more than personal travelers offer.
> Currently we are including personal travelers "found" in our F
> counts (as that is the general tradition) but have decided to list
> them separately on this page in order to distinguish them from
what
> we consider true finds (proper letterboxes).
>
> At one gathering we went to we overheard someone say they don't
> collect personal travelers. We are personally leaning toward
doing
> the same, if only because in our opinion the "hunt" doesn't
justify
> the reward and besides, at events, there's so much exchanging
going
> on we barely have enough time for that. I suppose it might be
> different if we meet someone on the trail.
>
> Anyway, that's a really long answer to a simple question, so let
me
> answer simply. Personal travelers are counted in your F count.
If
> you want to keep track of them separately as well, that's your
call.
>
> CPAScott
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Julie"
> wrote:
> > I do mean the personal travelers.
> >
> > ~Oceanywtch~
> >

Well, now I'm confused again. I thought I had this down. Music Woman said, "Exchanges are people's stamps that are stamped into boxes." All this time I thought "exchanges" WERE the "regular stamps" or "personal stamps" or whatever that people exchange when they go to events or meet another 'boxer somewhere. Ok...example here: I went to a gathering and stamped my personal stamp in other people's logbooks, and they stamped their personal stamps in mine. These were the same stamps we all use when we stamp into regular letterboxes. I thought those were considered "exchanges" (those exchanges we were doing) Are you saying that those stamps that we "exchanged" were not "exchanges" but were "Fs" and are called Personal Travelers? If as you say, "exchanges are people's stamps that are stamped into boxes", then one only gets exchanges by planting a box and eventually getting its logbook? Some people there had only one personal stamp. Others had a group one as well, and others had their son's stamp along, etc. There was also one large event stamp for that particular event, and I assume the only time you could get that is by being there.

There were also boxes at that event which were made by people who were not necessarily there at the event, for instance there was the Cat that Ate the Canary box, or something like that. I thought they were called Traveling Event boxes. Is this wrong? They had stamps and logbooks and we did with them what one does when one finds a regular letterbox--stamped in. Someone there was either taking these boxes to another event or returning them to their creator, I don't know. H-E-L-P I'm not trying to be dense here. I will go read the whole LbNA description again, but it seems to me there might be some semantic problems because people call them by different names? Maybe I'm just tired. It's getting to the point where we need a whole letterboxing dictionary!

It does make sense to me to count PLBs as a find when you receive one... the present popularity of them shouldn't change that. Regular letterboxes were once a novelty too, and still are in some areas, and there are plenty of them whose clues are no more mysterious or challenging than signing up for a PLB. Well, hope someone can write this stuff in the form of a small dictionary of stamp and box types to help out the newbies as well as those of us who thought we had it down and don't! Thanks --lunaryakketyact

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/3/2004 11:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
annalisa@fast.net writes:
"These were the same stamps we all use when we stamp into regular
letterboxes. I thought those were considered "exchanges" (those exchanges we were doing) "
Yes, those ARE exchanges. However, people ALSO have personal travelers which
are different than their regular stamp. Personal Travelers are usually
considered finds. They are boxes that we carry with us.

"There were also boxes at that event which were made by people who were not
necessarily there at the event, for instance there was the Cat that Ate the
Canary box, or something like that. I thought they were called Traveling Event
boxes."

Those could be considered Traveling event boxes, or just boxes. THey are
also finds.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Music Woman! I think I get it now... sleep helps! We've been practicing music like crazy... wedding season! Off to a cousin's one today near Lancaster. Haven't even checked yet to see what boxes may be nearby. What I didn't realize is that Personal Travelers ARE actually boxes. When people spoke of them in the past, I had them mixed up with the personal stamps people exchange. So, where DO most people list the stamps they've gotten in logbook that was in a box that they created? (If they get it back that is...) --lunaryakketyact


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't realize Personal Travelers are actually boxes. At the moment I carry two personal travelers with me. They are merely stamps. They do not have their own log books. I exchange my personal stamp but if someone should ask me about my personal travelers they also receive those stamps. And I count them as exchanges. IMO it's too cumbersome to carry around yet another log book considering I carry three at the moment, mine and my two boys'.

Peppermint Patti :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Anna Lisa Yoder
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] Counting your F count


What I didn't realize is that Personal Travelers ARE actually boxes.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay, so now I am confused. What exactly makes a personal traveller
a box? All of the ones I have seen have been carried on a person
(as opposed to hidden with hike and clues) and did not include their
own logbook (which would qualify it as a letterbox).

Am I understanding that if I meet Joe Boxer on the trail and
exchange stamps with him and he uses his personal stamp (the one he
stamps into boxes with), then I have chalked up an "X", however if
he stamps my book with a personal traveller instead, then I have
increased my "F" count?

Go figure...

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Anna Lisa Yoder"
wrote:
> Thanks, Music Woman! I think I get it now... sleep helps! We've
been practicing music like crazy... wedding season! Off to a
cousin's one today near Lancaster. Haven't even checked yet to see
what boxes may be nearby. What I didn't realize is that Personal
Travelers ARE actually boxes. When people spoke of them in the
past, I had them mixed up with the personal stamps people exchange.
So, where DO most people list the stamps they've gotten in logbook
that was in a box that they created? (If they get it back that
is...) --lunaryakketyact
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/4/2004 10:35:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
springchick@letterbox-mi.com writes:
Okay, so now I am confused. What exactly makes a personal traveller
a box? All of the ones I have seen have been carried on a person
(as opposed to hidden with hike and clues) and did not include their
own logbook (which would qualify it as a letterbox).

Am I understanding that if I meet Joe Boxer on the trail and
exchange stamps with him and he uses his personal stamp (the one he
stamps into boxes with), then I have chalked up an "X", however if
he stamps my book with a personal traveller instead, then I have
increased my "F" count?
That is correct. Besides, if we didn't count every microbox that didn't have
a logbook in it as a find, our F counts would be MUCH lower here in CT.

Music Woman

Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe that's one reason our F counts are lower over here -- we tend
to only count letterbox finds as an F.

SpringChick

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, mindizney@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/4/2004 10:35:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> springchick@l... writes:
> Okay, so now I am confused. What exactly makes a personal
traveller
> a box? All of the ones I have seen have been carried on a person
> (as opposed to hidden with hike and clues) and did not include
their
> own logbook (which would qualify it as a letterbox).
>
> Am I understanding that if I meet Joe Boxer on the trail and
> exchange stamps with him and he uses his personal stamp (the one
he
> stamps into boxes with), then I have chalked up an "X", however if
> he stamps my book with a personal traveller instead, then I have
> increased my "F" count?

> That is correct. Besides, if we didn't count every microbox that
didn't have
> a logbook in it as a find, our F counts would be MUCH lower here
in CT.
>
> Music Woman
>
> Music Woman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess it's personal preference. I count personal travelers as exchanges.

Different strokes.

DebBee, showing her age


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As do I. Actually I had never heard of it being done any other way
prior to this thread.

I guess the difference is how you define a personal traveller and
whether it has a log book or not. Every personal traveller I have
ever encountered has simply been a stamp that a person used for
doing an exchange (other than their regular signature stamp). In
some cases I have had to answer a question or solve a riddle or jump
up and down with my eyes closed and say the ABC's backward, but
still they were just stamps -- never a log book. Apparently in
other parts of the country from where I live, personal travellers
have their own log books and are basically the equivalent of a
letterbox, just that it is carried in somebody's pack instead of
hidden on a trail. In that case, I can see where one might consider
it an "F".

I am not trying to split hairs with anyone. I just think it is very
confusing for newer list members when posts are made that are
contradictory to what is indicated in the LbNA FAQ -- where it
clearly defines an "F" as a letterbox which contains a stamp and a
logbook (and follow clues with the exception of HH).

SpringChick


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, StDebb@a... wrote:
> I guess it's personal preference. I count personal travelers as
exchanges.
>
> Different strokes.
>
> DebBee, showing her age
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well then perhaps LBNA needs to specify what a personal traveller is.

Music Woman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe she means the traveling event boxes?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]